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Whizzo

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Reply with quote  #1 
Folks:

Just started to decal my CF-104 and the first roundel I applied caused a problem! As you can see from the photo below the starboard wing has a significant white stain that I believe came from a reaction with the Microsol or Microset.



The model was painted in Model Master Acryl dark green over a week ago and sealed with a good layer of Pledge/Klear last evening. Everything was left to dry overnight so it had about 16 hours to cure.

Can anyone explain what is going on here - and more importantly how to clean this up? I really don't want to repaint the wing and reorder the decals just for 1 roundel.

Thanks.

Fred

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Brundledonk

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Fred, I have had the same thing happen over Klear, it was because I applied too much micro sol and let it sit on the surface and pool up ! Don't worryIt should go if you apply another coat of klear. What I tend do do now is apply minimal amount of set, then add decal, let it dry, if I need to apply sol I apply it then use the corner of a piece of kitchen towel to wick away any excess
Hope this helps
Edit : looking at the pics, it is only clouding and hasn't eaten through the green paint has it ?
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Whizzo

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Reply with quote  #3 
Pete:

Thanks for the info. No it doesn't look like it has eaten through the paint. Oddly enough this didn't happen with my previous project. I wonder if the reaction is with the paint and if a heavier coat of Pledge/Klear would have prevented it?

Fred

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Brundledonk

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Reply with quote  #4 
Also don't underestimate the drying times for the base colour before adding klear then decal solution, the thing with klear is it gets touch dry very quickly but is still drying under the surface. I would wait a minimum of 24 hours before applying them and be sparing with the solutions, at least with Klear subsequent coats melt into the previous one so it should be fine. Although sometimes these things just happen for seemingly no reason whatsoever lol, the modelling gods love to test us ! Maybe time to sacrifice another goat ? Lol

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Reflect

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Reply with quote  #5 
So, what is the point to use unstable Klear when you need to wait 24h (still this substance will never be stronger than regular varnish). Since I had exact issue with it never come back to it. Currently using proper uv mat or gloss varnish from Winsor&Newton.

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Chriatian

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Brundledonk

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflect
So, what is the point to use unstable Klear when you need to wait 24h (still this substance will never be stronger than regular varnish). Since I had exact issue with it never come back to it. Currently using proper uv mat or gloss varnish from Winsor&Newton.

Cheers
Chriatian


It's just a personal preference, I find I get good results using it, so while I still have some of the original formula I will keep using it. I disagree with that it is not as strong as regular varnish, it is after all designed to add a protective gloss coating to floors, and it is just a thin gloss varnish, I have found in my own experiences that most paint job problems are caused by in no particular order , poor surface preparation, temperature, humidity when spraying and not leaving adequate drying times between layers, if had had stopped using a product due to having a problem with it at one time or another, my models would be held together with blu tack and finished In bare plastic

Pete
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RossiM1

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Reply with quote  #7 
Interesting topic, and one thats open to debate and many answers/solutions I( sorry no pun intended), as most of us use acrylics both paints and varnishes, they will always be susceptible to have liquids applied over them, ie decal solutions, Johnsons Klear is particularly susceptible to Micro set and Sol because they are ammonia based, and if you read the instructions on the Johnsons bottle about how to remove it, it says to use ammonia and hot water, the very things we use when decalling models, I now add drops of set and sol into the dish of warm water i use for decals so the decal soaks for a while in solution, I find this reduces the need to keep on applying more solution on the model itself, if more is needed i brush the decal with solution then use a hair dryer to actually heat shrink the decal down and this also dries the solution,leaving no nasty stains behind.
Hope this helps.
Gary

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Brundledonk

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RossiM1
Interesting topic, and one thats open to debate and many answers/solutions I( sorry no pun intended), as most of us use acrylics both paints and varnishes, they will always be susceptible to have liquids applied over them, ie decal solutions, Johnsons Klear is particularly susceptible to Micro set and Sol because they are ammonia based, and if you read the instructions on the Johnsons bottle about how to remove it, it says to use ammonia and hot water, the very things we use when decalling models, I now add drops of set and sol into the dish of warm water i use for decals so the decal soaks for a while in solution, I find this reduces the need to keep on applying more solution on the model itself, if more is needed i brush the decal with solution then use a hair dryer to actually heat shrink the decal down and this also dries the solution,leaving no nasty stains behind.
Hope this helps.
Gary


This is very true Gary, I have found the sol is more likely to cloud the finish than set, but the risk of clouding is reduced if the klear is absolutely dry, the importance of drying times should never be forgotten, acrylics may seem to dry very quickly but depending on the type of thinners used they can still be gassing out well after they appear to be dry. I don't use setting solutions on every model as different manufacturers decals can require different methods. I think we all have our own methods and potions, and when we find something that works we stick to it. The absolute best decaling results I have achieved is when I have used the klear as a setting solution, this has made even the most stubborn details snuggle down, but I find that they clamp themselves down as soon as they touch the surface and I can't get them to move around so it's far from the ideal technique lol, if I am going to stuff a build I can pretty much guarantee it will be the decals, they just seem to hate me !

Pete
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TedUSA

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Reply with quote  #9 
Wow-I got a load of info from this thread. In addition to what I read here I also saw another tip at the local scale model club meeting recently. The president of the club was doing a demo on decals. He uses a bit of diluted white glue on the model surface [already coated with PLEDGE/KLEAR] when putting the decal down. I stated that I had difficulty keeping the set solution on curved surfaces sometimes and he pointed to his white glue solution.

I do not know exactly what is in Micro set and sol but I can tell you that the smells are identical to the chemistry that I am familiar with in film processing. The Developer and Fixer Solutions. Both destroy film emulsions if soaked too long. They are both carcinogenic and both will eat rubber and metal over time, especially fixer. I've seen the fixer solution eat through an iron bank vault. exactly WHAT all that has to do with decals?....not sure, except be careful with the solutions and realize the power they have.

FUTURE/PLEDGE/KLEAR state on the bottle that they are "acrylic". Acrylic varnish takes longer to cure--harden completely. On floors we walk on it but it has a "life" to it and has to be re-applied according to traffic.But this is also true of the solvent varnish applied to wood surfaces. I think that Europe is looking at banning certain solvents in products and that might affect the chemistry of KLEAR? since water is the primary solvent, I hope it is not removed from the market.

here is an excerpt from Wikipedia on "Varnish":

Varnish is a transparent, hard, protective finish or film primarily used in wood finishing but also for other materials. Varnish is traditionally a combination of a drying oil, a resin, and a thinner or solvent. Varnish finishes are usually glossy but may be designed to produce satin or semi-gloss sheens by the addition of "flatting" agents. Varnish has little or no color, is transparent, and has no added pigment, as opposed to paints or wood stains, which contain pigment and generally range from opaque to translucent. Varnishes are also applied over wood stains as a final step to achieve a film for gloss and protection. Some products are marketed as a combined stain and varnish.

After being applied, the film-forming substances in varnishes either harden directly, as soon as the solvent has fully evaporated, or harden after evaporation of the solvent through certain curing processes, primarily chemical reaction between oils and oxygen from the air (autoxidation) and chemical reactions between components of the varnish. Resin varnishes "dry" by evaporation of the solvent and harden almost immediately upon drying. Acrylic and waterborne varnishes "dry" upon evaporation of the water but experience an extended curing period. Oil, polyurethane, and epoxy varnishes remain liquid even after evaporation of the solvent but quickly begin to cure, undergoing successive stages from liquid or syrupy, to tacky or sticky, to dry gummy, to "dry to the touch", to hard. Environmental factors such as heat and humidity play a very large role in the drying and curing times of varnishes. In classic varnish the cure rate depends on the type of oil used and, to some extent, on the ratio of oil to resin. The drying and curing time of all varnishes may be sped up by exposure to an energy source such as sunlight, ultraviolet light, or heat. Many varnishes rely on organic oils or resins for their binder in combination with organic solvents; these are highly flammable in their liquid state. In addition, all drying oils, certain alkyds, and many single-component polyurethanes produce heat during the curing process. Therefore, oil-soaked rags and paper can smolder and ignite hours after use if they are bunched or piled together, or, for example, placed in a container where the heat cannot dissipate.

very interesting subject. I see the value of Bob's Heater box for drying paint and KLEAR on models.


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Cozmacozmy

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Reply with quote  #10 
How did this turn out Fred? I just bought some Micr-sol and set this evening. Never used it before...
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Cozmacozmy
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TedUSA

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cozmacozmy
How did this turn out Fred? I just bought some Micr-sol and set this evening. Never used it before...


I was also wondering if Fred was able to resolve the silvering. hope so!

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Gr4h4m

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Reply with quote  #12 
I have not had any good results with klear and will not be using it. I have always put a small amount of gloss varnish into my post primer paints and never had a problem, I dont understand why you want to use floor polish, Its just my personal experience
Gra
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TedUSA

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Reply with quote  #13 
Gra,

You are exactly right.I use it mostly becasue that was what I was told to use early on-LOL. its cheaper?[3 oz of Windsor Newton varnish is nearly $8US--27 ounces of Pledge was about $5US], its easy to handle and cleanup [cleans easily with IPA]. It can be diluted with water. less toxic than a varnish? available at more locations? and its basically a clear acrylic which matches most all the paint I use. its not a polish since it does not contain wax and does not require buffing to reach max gloss.its less likely to yellow over time from oxidation of the chemistry? I can use it on clear parts. I can "glue" small PE parts down with it. I can color it with food coloring and tint clear parts. I can mix it with acrylic paints and use it as a wash for weathering. I can remove it with IPA if needed. I don't know if varnish is applicable to the other uses I listed? just don't know cause I've never tried.

I read a post in another forum recently by a modeler who does not use satin or gloss overcoat of any kind--ever. he states that his decals look better over flat paint--his exact quote was that the difference was "astounding". he went on to say that he gets them down tighter and with a more "painted on look" than any other technique. He does not offer his technique, or show examples or comparisons, just says that he cannot understand why modelers use any kind of clear overcoat since it is a waste of time and detrimental to the finish overall. go figure---the pendulum is 180deg from what we most often read.

basically boils down to what each modeler finds works best for them, just like most every product/tool that is available to us.

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Brundledonk

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Reply with quote  #14 
I use it as it's nice and cheap, I have been using the same bottle for around 5 years and it's still 3/4 full, I've never had problems with it, but it is the old Kleer formula, and not the cloudy one that they replaced it with. It's a really good way to seal the paintwork before weathering. Ted I want to send that guy some of the left over decals I've got left from my f-15 I'd like to see how he gets on lol ! The fact that he has not provided pics or tell how he does it, makes me somewhat sceptical ! If there was a way to get perfectly settled decals on a matt finish we would all be doing it

Pete
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TedUSA

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Reply with quote  #15 
"... If there was a way to get perfectly settled decals on a matt finish we would all be doing it...." indeed. he might be blowing a bit of smoke?

I am rubbing my chin and thinking about what Gra posted re: adding a bit of gloss varnish to primary paints. definitely worth a try. it would eliminate a step?

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pinterest pg. of scale models/dioramas:
http://www.pinterest.com/intrstinpintrst/awesome-scale-models/


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